(no subject)

[roseveare]

I could really use someone interested in reading my original work. I've had no luck with 13 agents so far and one guy who was an absolute turd about it in amongst that. I'm starting to feel really down and as though I'm wasting my time. The only person so far who has read the full draft is the one I paid to look at it and her advice was an absolute "no do not self publish, get an agent and do it properly" so she seemed to think it was good enough. Yet how do I stand any chance selling it if I can't even get friends to read it, and not a single other person has come back. The person I paid to read it is literally the only other person other than me who's read the full draft and come back to me about it. People irl, at work, and online, nothing.

I don't know how to solve this. If I ask again I'm just giving it to more people that probably won't come back because its happened again and again. Its not slash, not erotica, not primarily a romance (though it does have a strong central m/f relationship) and it seems that makes it of no interest to the fandom crowd.

Does anyone know any groups or sites for this kind of thing that are reliable and safe from things like stealing work?

I just don't know what to do. I'm not looking for apologies from the people who'd said they'd read it and didn't. I'm just feeling shitty and hopeless and looking for a solution because I feel like I have no options and no chance and I'm writing in a void with no feedback encouragement or sounding board to judge what works and doesn't. My close family who i could've reasonably expected to read anything are dead. Most of the people in my life don't read fantasy. I have one close friend who does and who writes herself and she won't even read it, pleading bad concentration. And i really dont know what's up there because a few years ago we swapped short stories while on a trip: i read hers and talked about it, she never read mine, and its gone on from there.

I just absolutely feel like i can't get anywhere. I'm writing - I' m writing loads - but what's it for?

(Aaand I've just noticed a bloody stupid mistake in the thing, going over the draft again and amending the contents page into ebook format, because it's only really apparent from the chapter headers unless you're paying a lot of attention to what day it is. How did I not spot that before?)

Comments

[rheasilvia]

Unfortunately repeated rejections are the rule when trying to find an agent or publisher. Please try not to be too discouraged - it really isn't a reflection of your work's quality, even though it undoubtedly feels hard to take!

Another note on the fear of your work being stolen: Many authors fear this, which is very understandable considering how much work has gone into their book and how hopeful they are for it, but it is not actually a real danger. I have never actually heard of an unpublished work by a new author being plagiarized. And if the extremely improbable happened and - say - a famous fantasy author saw it and grabbed it and published it as their own work, you could easily sue them for a lot of money and become famous in the process. :-)

it seems that makes it of no interest to the fandom crowd

In all honesty, this is the case when it comes to me personally. That's why I haven't volunteered to take a look at it.

There are Goodreads communities that offer feedback groups for this kind of thing - but I am only in a gay romance one that doesn't hlp you. Still, if you look/ask around you might well find something suitable!

[roseveare]

I'm more concerned that some joker puts it on the original section of ff.net or ao3 than the sort of example you cite but I still find the idea a bit worrying when it comes to sharing unpublished work with groups of people I don't know.

Re the fandom issue I'm a bit puzzled by this because it seems folks must have read or watched the source material that wasn't of the erotic or explicitly slash nature... but I am seeing it as a factor even if I don't entirely understand. Thanks for being frank about that, btw.

I didn't know there was such a thing as goodreads communities...

[rheasilvia]

Oh yes, there is a huge and active community on Goodreads! There is nbound to be a large fantasy / urban fantasy group - and very probably a number of others thatv also fit your novels. On top of discussion, the m/m romance one has a variety of reading and writing challenges and activities, and a review initiative where authors can sigh up for honest reviews of their books.

It's definitely a place where you could find beta-readers. As I said, unfortunately I don't know the relevant groups, but it shouldn't be too hard to find out!

[roseveare]

I'm looking now. What's the status of the writing on there? It seems rather unexplained. I can see that there is a lot of fiction uploaded by users themselves. Does this affect publication potential the same way as putting it on ffnet or the like? Is it basically a version of ffnet for original fiction or is this the upload and critique format you mentioned and considered a private upload because you have to be a member to see it?

I can see that there's also an option to offer work for sale.

Found the groups. I will have a potter around and maybe test things out later.

[roseveare]

I am getting very disheartened as i keep getting told about things like... book authors being forced to change their northern settings to London ones. Or being told how 'niche' humorous fantasy seems. Or shitty vanity publishers doing presentations at sf cons who tell me publishers dont want stuff over 100k words (5 out of 6 of my series being that.) Or that turd of an agent who sat there and indicated i'd wasted my time writing 6 books because no-one will take that on and he can sell 3 max. And i just feel like i am up against it and people keep throwing up barriers. I am getting more and more angry and depressed and wishing I'd never listened to the woman who said to get an agent and just tried the local small publisher or self published.

[rheasilvia]

Well, self-publishing won't run away - that option is always open to you! It makes sense to try and see if you can find a publisher first, BUT you can always change your mind. It's also a lot of work, but very different, so it may well be the better option for you in the end.

Plus, self-publishing is also not a road of no return. ;-) You can self-publish and change your mind, too.

Maybe checking out some of the rejection comments famous writers have gotten may cheer you up a bit...? It's traditional for agents / publishers to have very narrow ideas of what they want to / can sell, and trying to fit everything into that narrow little space. It doesn't mean that's the only thing that actually will or can sell - and it also doesn't mean that every agent or publisher is looking for the same thing.

[roseveare]

The thing is that this time last year I'd finished editing Book 1 at last, was looking for someone to edit it (the local poet advertising herself as a "writing mentor" whom I paid) and planning to get it self published or approach the local small press, and be off. The local sci-fi con was coming around and it always has some writers who are pushing their own self published work at tables, and I was telling people that next year that would be me. Now it's next year, the con is coming up in 2 months or so, and because of this "change of plan" it feels like nothing has progressed, and this is a really aggravating feeling.

[roseveare]

(Its not slash, not erotica, not primarily a romance (though it does have a strong central m/f relationship) and it seems that makes it of no interest to the fandom crowd.)

In all honesty, this is the case when it comes to me personally. That's why I haven't volunteered to take a look at it.

The one I've just finished, The Sorcerer of Setbacks and Tailbacks, features a bisexual male main character and a sort of pre-slash primary gay relationship, if that makes it of any interest in a few months' time when it's edited. It's also principally about grief, so since the main character is still basically grieving throughout the course of this novel, the relationship does not begin here, but it's definitely a thing in the main series which is set 6 years later.

You would definitely not be obliged to continue if after a couple of chapters it was not your thing! I am aware that there is a difference between a bad novel and something that is just not someone's particular taste.

[gwyn]

There are lots and lots of critique groups online, if not in physical spaces that meet up, and it sounds like this is what you might need. You have to agree to read others' works, but they will read yours, too. Yes, you'll be dealing with all different kinds of people's quirks, but that's the way literally every published author I've worked for has started, and most continue to participate in critique groups. I also belong to one that meets every other Saturday and they can be brutal, but super helpful as well, and we've had a couple of successful authors come out of it. The focus is on SF/F, but we've had different types of focuses when time has allowed--but it opened my eyes to the world of critique groups. It will require some digging around to find something you like--but if you're writing loads and loads, it'll get eyes on that writing. You might also be able to get pintpointed advice about agents or publishers.

[roseveare]

I've really been put off these groups in the past, by being in rl ones with the factor of being the only sff writer, or worse, the only fiction writer in a bunch of poets. My creative writing minor was made miserable by the tutors refusal to mix up the groups or let me swap and having to read stuff that really wasnt my sort of thing in a group that had no interest or understanding of what i was doing. And i have not even considered subjecting myself to that again for 20 years in consequence. But i am beginning to see it might be my only recourse. Though in the physical local group i fully expect to be the only sff writer like when i was a teen. (I also hate the short fiction over-focus and writing exercises i remember from these groups... blergh.)

Do you have any idea where to look online?

[sholio]

I can recommend eroticanons - it's my main resource for this sort of thing. As the name suggests, they're mainly romance and erotica writers, but there are a number of people in the group doing other things (e.g. there's one person writing historical fantasy, a couple of SF writers, etc) as well as people like me who do romance as well as other genres. People do beta swaps and copy edit swaps and that kind of thing.

It's an invite-only group, i.e. you need to know someone, and instructions for joining are at the profile page of the comm - if you're interested, you'll need to send a message to the maintainer saying how you found out about it (just say you know me). There's an associated Google group that is where most of the actual discussion takes place.

I have found it a very friendly group and useful for all manner of talking about the publishing industry, self-publishing and the like.

It is very competitive and hard to get published the traditional way. Not saying you shouldn't do it, just ... well, back when I was taking creative writing classes, I once mentioned to my prof (a published author of several books, married to a commercially successful fantasy writer) that I was feeling discouraged because my novel kept getting rejected by agents. She asked me how many rejections I'd gotten. I said "Uh ... about 20?" She laughed and said, "Come talk to me at 100." I've seen advice to send them out in batches of 10 or 20 at a time. Even getting a personalized rejection instead of a form letter is a big deal. Which I'm saying not to be discouraging, actually the reverse - it doesn't mean there's anything at all that's wrong with your novel, or that it isn't good, just that success in this business is slow and hard.

I wrote my first novel at 17, published the first one at 37 (that was like #7 I'd written by that point), and am making a living from my writing now, but it took forever to get here.

(Going through periods of feeling like "I am DONE with this, I am terrible, I will never be a writer" ... also perfectly normal. I spent YEARS doing that.)

Anyway, all of THAT being said ... I'm just finishing up the final edits on a science fiction romance that I'm planning to put out (self-pub) in mid to late Feb., and I've been fishing for betas on the mailing list, so if you think you'd be able to do a week to 2 weeks' turnaround, I would be happy to do a beta swap with your novel as well, if you're interested! ♥

[roseveare]

I'd be interested... but will have to reply properly and sort the draft out tomorrow now. Very long day and brain not working!

[sholio]

♥ Yeah, no worries! I realized in retrospect that I might've come on a bit strong here in several ways (it's ... a thing I do) so please don't feel pressured!

[roseveare]

I will look at the group. I'm kind of in a funny place I suppose, as a writer coming from fandom. I never planned to write erotica outside of fanfic... I never really planned to write erotica in fanfic, which is amazing considering the amount of adult work I've got on AO3. I always liked adventure stories but at the same time I want them to be for grown-ups, so the fact that in fic you could go there as a part of telling a plot-based story was interesting. I'm not aiming to write anything suitable for children or teens, I don't want to write about child or young characters, or even youthful heroes. That doesn't mean the stories have to have adult content in the sense of explicit stuff necessarily, but I kind of miss the feeling of being able to take events ANYwhere, and most of my fic has kind of made a point of going anywhere, but there's a sense that if I'm going to approach traditional publishing then it needs to be sanitised. One of the first things the poet lady said was that she wasn't sure about the (very non explicit) sex scene near the end and she wasn't sure about the characters dropping the F bomb. (I said I wasn't changing it until/unless an agent or publisher made it a condition, because I don't see it being a deal-breaker since it IS easy to change, and I want my swears.)

I've had 13 rejections in 7 months, because the time's caught up on me, and I'm planning to start sending more out, somewhat hampered by computer issues because i lost Word when the laptop died the other week, but maybe like try to send one a week rather than doing batches, to keep it constantly ticking over.

I wrote a sci-fi novel at 15 which would never be publishable, a few others growing up, before a long break for fanfic where I picked at this 6 book humorous fantasy series for the last 10 years or so, and now I'm 41 and looking to publish the thing. Long fiction has always been my thing, even the short stories are never that short. And I can usually only write those if they're picking up and developing known characters. Character development over time is kind of what does it for me so short stories in isolation just don't work.

I can read it and comment back in 1-2 weeks. I doubt I can do detailed line edits in that time frame, rearranging text and suchlike, but then I doubt you need detailed line edits. I can point out potential errors where I see them though and comment on broader factors. So if that's okay I can do that beta swap.

[sholio]

Oh yeah, just a rough read-through for big-picture stuff would be fine; that's all I'm asking of my other betas as well (I also have a copy editor for SPAG stuff). I should also add that it's genre romance so it's ... romancy, very tropey, with the characters doing things that sensible people would probably not do like having sex in the monster-infested alien wilderness. That being said, I would like it to not be full of fixable plot holes.

The crazy thing about me is that, as a fanfic writer, I am almost entirely a gen writer. The first het sex scene I ever wrote was in my first romance novel. I basically learned how to do it from scratch, in the group, and now I'm really enjoying it and sort of retroactively applying it to fanfic and writing fanfic romance, which is something I never used to do except every once in a great long while. (I still write mostly gen, though.) I never in a million years would've thought I'd make a living writing romance, but ... well, here I am. I'm not saying that it's going to be for everyone, but I think I was an unusual "backwards" example of someone who writes a lot of profic romance these days but never actually wrote or read it back in my fanfic days.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading your novel! :) Thank you!

[roseveare]

Heh. My characters have "what the hell, we're probably going to die tomorrow" sex, and they've got no genre excuses.

It's funny, I've read your fic, but only in certain fandoms, so I'm not familiar with everything you've done, and assumed that because you wrote m/m original romance then you'd done it fic...

I've sent a PM with my email address and format queries in it.

[sholio]

Emailed!

And yeah, I've actually gone in almost exact reverse from how most people in fandom do things, because I intentionally started writing (original M/M) romance in about 2012-ish to get better at doing character arcs, and then transitioned to writing the mostly-het romance I'm writing now, but prior to all of this, 99% of my fanfic was plotty action-adventure gen. I didn't start doing fanfic M/M (aside from an experiment here or there) until after I'd already been writing the original version for awhile.

I realize that's a highly unusual trajectory in fandom, though!

[alessandriana]

Can I suggest putting up the first chapter here under a lock? It may help people who are potentially interested, but have a history of being bad at actually reading and critiquing things (i.e., me) evaluate whether it's something they'd be able to do. (And there's less of an ego hit if someone clicks on it and backs out than there would be if you sent it to specific people and they don't respond.)

[roseveare]

I'm not sure. I'll think it over. I've never wanted to do that because it sort of feels like pushing it in people's faces rather than asking.

[alessandriana]

Idk, I don't think it's any more pushing it in people's faces than posting a fic that way is. Totally up to you, of course!

[roseveare]

I'm still debating, although the factor of not knowing which Chapter 1 to post, still, at this point, doesn't really help here... One possibility is that I could post a short story from Book 4, something relatively self contained.